After using Rust for many months I feel like it's just not a great language. Reasoning through borrow semantics for reasonably sized programs is too tedious.

I like the idea of substructural type systems! I feel like we aren't there yet with Rust in how to design a language with such a type system though.

@robd My experience is (mostly) not firsthand but what I hear is that everyone sucks at Rust at first.

@soaproot Yeah, I'm at the point I can consistently get to working code, but the process of satisfying the borrow checker is feeling like a real grind.

@robd @soaproot eventually you structure your code in a way that flows with the borrow semantics and you never think about it anymore. It's a paradigm shift kinda thing, I think

@robd i tend to disagree
when you write programs in other low-level languages like C you have to reason about ownership anyway (just manually) and the only way that I have seen languages get around this is through ref-counting and GC, which adds significant overhead (to some programs)
rust forces you to think about ownership, but also is designed so that most things will "just work", and if it doesn't you'll be informed

but maybe i've used C for too long and I think things are worse than they actually are :dragnmlem:

@pounce Oh I'd rather use Rust than C! I'm mostly contrasting with some GC'ed languages (Haskell, OCaml, JVM languages) I could be using for my current project, and I'm not finding the Rust tradeoffs worth it. I'm also much more familiar with those other languages, though, so some bias at play. Going to keep going with Rust for the rest of this project, maybe I will hit my stride with it.

@robd yeah, it definitely feels different but i think that's just because of how low level rust is
it's not always going to be able to do things that GC'd languages can, and sometimes those are a better option

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